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Lounge => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kalifornia. on April 02, 2018, 03:08:44 AM

Title: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Kalifornia. on April 02, 2018, 03:08:44 AM
https://www.care2.com/causes/coming-out-at-7-years-old-how-should-parents-respond.html

Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Lane Bryant Jumpsuit on April 02, 2018, 03:10:27 AM
Smack him upside the head and tell him to.keep his head in the books untill he 25
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Pearls Khan on April 02, 2018, 03:26:42 AM
Out!

Throw the whole planet away
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Kaeli. on April 02, 2018, 03:28:26 AM
c
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: CHOKE on April 02, 2018, 06:55:45 AM
I think I was 5 when my teacher caught me with my hands down this boys pants in kindergarten

We use to play house and I was the mom

Some kids jus know what they want at a young age
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: yummy on April 02, 2018, 07:21:17 AM
Be cool about it and tell your child to wait until they become a teenager to be able to better understand themselves.
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Blackpantha on April 02, 2018, 08:04:23 AM
Quote from: Wild Bitch on April 02, 2018, 06:55:45 AM
I think I was 5 when my teacher caught me with my hands down this boys pants in kindergarten

We use to play house and I was the mom

Some kids jus know what they want at a young age

I was 5 when I knew I was gay. People may say that's way to early to know. But I knew who i was.
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: como la whore on April 02, 2018, 08:07:42 AM
I definitely knew as early as 1st grade. Not necessarily what gay was, I just knew I liked boys.
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Mel. on April 02, 2018, 09:16:22 AM
With support, love and understanding.
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Zabi. on April 02, 2018, 09:37:22 AM
Quote from: Wild Bitch on April 02, 2018, 06:55:45 AM
I think I was 5 when my teacher caught me with my hands down this boys pants in kindergarten

We use to play house and I was the mom

Some kids jus know what they want at a young age

:guys:
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 11:59:35 AM
Well, its clear he got that idea from a tv show, which the media tried so hard to shove down children?s throats.
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Kurama on April 02, 2018, 12:57:42 PM
Quote from: ANIMMAI on April 02, 2018, 07:21:17 AM
Be cool about it and tell your child to wait until they become a teenager to be able to better understand themselves.
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: MelMel on April 02, 2018, 01:01:17 PM
Quote from: Kurama on April 02, 2018, 12:57:42 PM
Quote from: ANIMMAI on April 02, 2018, 07:21:17 AM
Be cool about it and tell your child to wait until they become a teenager to be able to better understand themselves.
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: FlowerBomb on April 02, 2018, 01:43:54 PM
Quote from: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 11:59:35 AM
Well, its clear he got that idea from a tv show, which the media tried so hard to shove down children?s throats.
:dead:
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Eternal Bell on April 02, 2018, 01:48:44 PM
hh
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Sovereign. on April 02, 2018, 01:50:52 PM
Quote from: Kurama on April 02, 2018, 12:57:42 PM
Quote from: ANIMMAI on April 02, 2018, 07:21:17 AM
Be cool about it and tell your child to wait until they become a teenager to be able to better understand themselves.
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: KING BENTLEY. on April 02, 2018, 01:53:18 PM
Quote from: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 11:59:35 AM
Well, its clear he got that idea from a tv show, which the media tried so hard to shove down children?s throats.
s

I hope you know your son might grow up gay Gen :uhh:
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: FlowerBomb on April 02, 2018, 01:54:16 PM
she needs to be able to carry one first
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 02:04:25 PM
Quote from: SAINT BENTLEY. on April 02, 2018, 01:53:18 PM
Quote from: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 11:59:35 AM
Well, its clear he got that idea from a tv show, which the media tried so hard to shove down children?s throats.
s

I hope you know your son might grow up gay Gen :uhh:
Did you read part of the article where he was obsessed with a gay character?

He got that from television and their agenda.
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Sinpool on April 02, 2018, 02:37:15 PM
Let him be a faggot.

The girls force heterosexuality on the babies. Talking about 3 year olds have girlfriends and boyfriends but get shooketh at the thought of same sex and wanna protect the children.
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Sinpool on April 02, 2018, 02:38:01 PM
Quote from: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 02:04:25 PM
Quote from: SAINT BENTLEY. on April 02, 2018, 01:53:18 PM
Quote from: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 11:59:35 AM
Well, its clear he got that idea from a tv show, which the media tried so hard to shove down children?s throats.
s

I hope you know your son might grow up gay Gen :uhh:
Did you read part of the article where he was obsessed with a gay character?

He got that from television and their agenda.

D

Boy hush

Dont make no damns sense.
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Eternal Bell on April 02, 2018, 02:41:23 PM
(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2016-11/21/10/asset/buzzfeed-prod-fastlane03/anigif_sub-buzz-25972-1479741401-2.gif?downsize=715:*&output-format=auto&output-quality=auto)
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: KING BENTLEY. on April 02, 2018, 02:42:11 PM
Quote from: Shangela on April 02, 2018, 02:38:01 PM
Quote from: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 02:04:25 PM
Quote from: SAINT BENTLEY. on April 02, 2018, 01:53:18 PM
Quote from: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 11:59:35 AM
Well, its clear he got that idea from a tv show, which the media tried so hard to shove down children?s throats.
s

I hope you know your son might grow up gay Gen :uhh:
Did you read part of the article where he was obsessed with a gay character?

He got that from television and their agenda.

D

Boy hush

Dont make no damns sense.
s

like .. I don't get it

if ppl were what they seen on tv there would be no gays.... all the str8 sex scenes they force down kids throats :dead:
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Sinpool on April 02, 2018, 02:44:17 PM
The gay agenda is a kii. They got the girls scared to even admit to it. An agenda isnt bad or good. It just means a tooic. Of course there?s an agenda to normalize being gay. Its called representation, they do the same with all minorities.

Why would representation be bad?
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Eternal Bell on April 02, 2018, 02:45:58 PM
i dnt think this is a gay agenda

but a pedophile agenda rite hea
go find a 16 yr old gay

not a bby!
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Barbie Dangerous on April 02, 2018, 02:46:15 PM
With fire and fury!
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Sinpool on April 02, 2018, 02:47:05 PM
If youre at a work meeting and they tell you whats on the agenda do you automatically start shaking in your boots?

:dead:
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 03:17:02 PM
Quote from: SAINT BENTLEY. on April 02, 2018, 02:42:11 PM
Quote from: Shangela on April 02, 2018, 02:38:01 PM
Quote from: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 02:04:25 PM
Quote from: SAINT BENTLEY. on April 02, 2018, 01:53:18 PM
Quote from: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 11:59:35 AM
Well, its clear he got that idea from a tv show, which the media tried so hard to shove down children?s throats.
s

I hope you know your son might grow up gay Gen :uhh:
Did you read part of the article where he was obsessed with a gay character?

He got that from television and their agenda.

D

Boy hush

Dont make no damns sense.
s

like .. I don't get it

if ppl were what they seen on tv there would be no gays.... all the str8 sex scenes they force down kids throats :dead:
Im speaking on this individual instance, not saying everyone thats gay got it from television  :dead:

Im not buying a 7 year old deciding he wants to be with men for the rest of his life in second grade just like I dont believe a 7 year old boy has his mind made up about changing his gender into female in second grade.

One day kids want to be a dinosaur and the next an astronaut so what the fuck is going on in this era? :dead:
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 03:18:39 PM
Straight kids overall dont even find the other sex attractive until later on

But this 7 year old has his whole life plan set in stone? :kii:

please!
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: como la whore on April 02, 2018, 03:20:49 PM
Quote from: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 03:18:39 PM
Straight kids overall dont even find the other sex attractive until later on

But this 7 year old has his whole life plan set in stone? :kii:

please!

well sexually sure, that's not until later when puberty strikes. but you've never heard of like innocent crushes? it exists.

Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Barbie Dangerous on April 02, 2018, 03:26:49 PM
Quote from: chula. on April 02, 2018, 03:20:49 PM
Quote from: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 03:18:39 PM
Straight kids overall dont even find the other sex attractive until later on

But this 7 year old has his whole life plan set in stone? :kii:

please!

well sexually sure, that's not until later when puberty strikes. but you've never heard of like innocent crushes? it exists.
!!!

It has nothing to do with sexuality. I remember wanting to get married in kindergarten so I?m not sure why it?s so difficult for people to realize that homosexuals develop feelings the same way..
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 03:28:19 PM
Quote from: chula. on April 02, 2018, 03:20:49 PM
Quote from: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 03:18:39 PM
Straight kids overall dont even find the other sex attractive until later on

But this 7 year old has his whole life plan set in stone? :kii:

please!

well sexually sure, that's not until later when puberty strikes. but you've never heard of like innocent crushes? it exists.
Yeah and its not out the ordinary for kids to have crushes on the same sex as children and then grow up straight later. Who?s to say this isnt different?

And this particular child never had a gay experience, he only got these ideas from watching tv and gay characters.
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: GRAND on April 02, 2018, 03:29:44 PM
Beat the gay outta him

I'm not raising no FAGGOTS!
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: como la whore on April 02, 2018, 03:32:41 PM
Quote from: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 03:28:19 PM
Quote from: chula. on April 02, 2018, 03:20:49 PM
Quote from: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 03:18:39 PM
Straight kids overall dont even find the other sex attractive until later on

But this 7 year old has his whole life plan set in stone? :kii:

please!

well sexually sure, that's not until later when puberty strikes. but you've never heard of like innocent crushes? it exists.
Yeah and its not out the ordinary for kids to have crushes on the same sex as children and then grow up straight later.

v
you think so? interesting.
that might be the case if they ended up identifying as bi.

I personally have never heard of that though.
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 03:36:41 PM
Quote from: chula. on April 02, 2018, 03:20:49 PM
Quote from: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 03:18:39 PM
Straight kids overall dont even find the other sex attractive until later on

But this 7 year old has his whole life plan set in stone? :kii:

please!

well sexually sure, that's not until later when puberty strikes. but you've never heard of like innocent crushes? it exists.
And like innocent crushes the change every minute with children. One day they have a crush on a kid in their class, next its some random character on tv. Next its the other kid down the street.

At that age that boy dont know what he want, just labeling him as ?gay? is just as questionable as letting a kid change his gender just because the idea randomly popped up in their heads one day.
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: MelMel on April 02, 2018, 03:38:20 PM
Quote from: BowDown on April 02, 2018, 03:26:49 PM
Quote from: chula. on April 02, 2018, 03:20:49 PM
Quote from: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 03:18:39 PM
Straight kids overall dont even find the other sex attractive until later on

But this 7 year old has his whole life plan set in stone? :kii:

please!

well sexually sure, that's not until later when puberty strikes. but you've never heard of like innocent crushes? it exists.
!!!

It has nothing to do with sexuality. I remember wanting to get married in kindergarten so I?m not sure why it?s so difficult for people to realize that homosexuals develop feelings the same way..
you were just a young ho sis  :wub:
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: KING BENTLEY. on April 02, 2018, 03:39:11 PM
Quote from: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 03:28:19 PM
Quote from: chula. on April 02, 2018, 03:20:49 PM
Quote from: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 03:18:39 PM
Straight kids overall dont even find the other sex attractive until later on

But this 7 year old has his whole life plan set in stone? :kii:

please!

well sexually sure, that's not until later when puberty strikes. but you've never heard of like innocent crushes? it exists.
Yeah and its not out the ordinary for kids to have crushes on the same sex as children and then grow up straight later. Who?s to say this isnt different?

And this particular child never had a gay experience, he only got these ideas from watching tv and gay characters.
ssssssssss

so ... what's your gripe again?
:ummwhat:
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Barbie Dangerous on April 02, 2018, 03:42:01 PM
Quote from: MelMel on April 02, 2018, 03:38:20 PM
Quote from: BowDown on April 02, 2018, 03:26:49 PM
Quote from: chula. on April 02, 2018, 03:20:49 PM
Quote from: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 03:18:39 PM
Straight kids overall dont even find the other sex attractive until later on

But this 7 year old has his whole life plan set in stone? :kii:

please!

well sexually sure, that's not until later when puberty strikes. but you've never heard of like innocent crushes? it exists.
!!!

It has nothing to do with sexuality. I remember wanting to get married in kindergarten so I?m not sure why it?s so difficult for people to realize that homosexuals develop feelings the same way..
you were just a young ho sis  :wub:
nxddhfrhftgtggyyy


:welllol:
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Mel. on April 02, 2018, 03:54:04 PM
Not understanding this "wait til.." they're such and such age
kids are not dumb, kids of today are very evolved and aware of who they are

much more than back then, telling them to wait isn't gonna change much
furthermore it only stifles them from being who they are...

do kids who exhibit hetero behavior, do we tell them to wait til they're a teen to know if they're straight?
no, so why would you do that to a homosexual child?

I'll never understand gays who are so against being gay
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Admin on April 02, 2018, 04:07:38 PM
Guys, Genesis and Fine Dining are the same person
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: KING BENTLEY. on April 02, 2018, 04:10:00 PM
 :plzstop: :plzstop: :plzstop: :plzstop: :plzstop: :plzstop:
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: como la whore on April 02, 2018, 04:11:03 PM
Quote from: squid on April 02, 2018, 04:07:38 PM
Guys, Genesis and Fine Dining are the same person

vsdddddddddddddddddwerssssssdsddvsvd
homophobic selves
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 04:31:30 PM
Quote from: squid on April 02, 2018, 04:07:38 PM
Guys, Genesis and Fine Dining are the same person
I dont know those damn people

:dead:

Who was I last week? Who will I be next week? Keep em comin!! :plzstop:
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 04:33:35 PM
Quote from: chula. on April 02, 2018, 04:11:03 PM
Quote from: squid on April 02, 2018, 04:07:38 PM
Guys, Genesis and Fine Dining are the same person

vsdddddddddddddddddwerssssssdsddvsvd
homophobic selves
Im homophobic because I dont think you should label a child based on his sexual orientation who?s  not even 10 years old?

:dead:

Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 04:35:48 PM
Quote from: SAINT BENTLEY. on April 02, 2018, 03:39:11 PM
Quote from: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 03:28:19 PM
Quote from: chula. on April 02, 2018, 03:20:49 PM
Quote from: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 03:18:39 PM
Straight kids overall dont even find the other sex attractive until later on

But this 7 year old has his whole life plan set in stone? :kii:

please!

well sexually sure, that's not until later when puberty strikes. but you've never heard of like innocent crushes? it exists.
Yeah and its not out the ordinary for kids to have crushes on the same sex as children and then grow up straight later. Who?s to say this isnt different?

And this particular child never had a gay experience, he only got these ideas from watching tv and gay characters.
ssssssssss

so ... what's your gripe again?
:ummwhat:
Instead of letting kids be kids yall wanna label them to fit in with your agenda. Its not cute.

Just because your gay that doesnt mean force these ideals down kids throats before they even had a first kiss with anyone.

?Oh you think spiderman?s cute? Youre gay!? Call the news stations!? :kii:
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: BAPHOMET. on April 02, 2018, 04:41:23 PM
Quote from: Kurama on April 02, 2018, 12:57:42 PM
Quote from: ANIMMAI on April 02, 2018, 07:21:17 AM
Be cool about it and tell your child to wait until they become a teenager to be able to better understand themselves.
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Mel. on April 02, 2018, 04:46:09 PM
I for one envy the kids of today
I definitely wasn't brave enough to be who I was as a kid, let alone come out
and because of it I spent a bit of my childhood unhappy and afraid

I think it's great that kids of today know exactly who they are
and are brave enough to be who they are. I wish I could've been that brave
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Pearls Khan on April 02, 2018, 04:49:58 PM
s
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Barbie Dangerous on April 02, 2018, 06:02:19 PM
Quote from: Mel. on April 02, 2018, 04:46:09 PM
I for one envy the kids of today
I definitely wasn't brave enough to be who I was as a kid, let alone come out
and because of it I spent a bit of my childhood unhappy and afraid

I think it's great that kids of today know exactly who they are
and are brave enough to be who they are. I wish I could've been that brave
This was beautiful Mel! :wub:
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Kaeli. on April 02, 2018, 06:08:38 PM
when did you guys KNOW you were gay

i don't wanna write this off as a kid just being a kid and saying whatever
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Kaeli. on April 02, 2018, 06:08:55 PM
Quote from: Pearls on April 02, 2018, 04:49:58 PM
s
:omgwatshappening:
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: GRAND on April 02, 2018, 06:09:16 PM
Quote from: Kaeli. on April 02, 2018, 06:08:38 PM
when did you guys KNOW you were gay

i don't wanna write this off as a kid just being a kid and saying whatever
v

yeah, i was STARRING at boys in middle school

i wasnt sure why, but i just kept doing it

Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: GRAND on April 02, 2018, 06:10:23 PM
but, like mentioned a few times in this thread

in the younger years you are curious about everything

i had so many crushes on various girls in elementary/middle school and a few girlfriends :dead: :dead: :dead: :dead: :dead: :dead: :dead: :dead: :dead:

but that shit never went far. i knew by late highschool i didnt want no damns COOCH

by college i was doing more than just looking at men lolz  :jetbeauty:
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 07:00:35 PM
Quote from: LORD GRAND SUPREME PRIME CELESTIAL MARSHALL on April 02, 2018, 06:10:23 PM
but, like mentioned a few times in this thread

in the younger years you are curious about everything

i had so many crushes on various girls in elementary/middle school and a few girlfriends :dead: :dead: :dead: :dead: :dead: :dead: :dead: :dead: :dead:

but that shit never went far. i knew by late highschool i didnt want no damns COOCH

by college i was doing more than just looking at men lolz  :jetbeauty:
So you liked girls in elementary but when you were older to actually have attraction you went for men. So what if somebody just SLAPPPED a label on you because of what you did before you were actually old enough to realize what you were doing?

Which is what I was saying here but you made it sound nicer I guess.  :letsmessfag:
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: L0NZ. on April 02, 2018, 07:03:11 PM
I knew very early. Like 4th grade. Actually, I got caught wit some neighborhood kid between the wall and my bed, "exploring" each other years before that
Title: Re: Coming Out as gay at 7 Years Old: How Should Parents Respond?
Post by: GRAND on April 02, 2018, 07:37:33 PM
Quote from: Genesis on April 02, 2018, 07:00:35 PM
Quote from: LORD GRAND SUPREME PRIME CELESTIAL MARSHALL on April 02, 2018, 06:10:23 PM
but, like mentioned a few times in this thread

in the younger years you are curious about everything

i had so many crushes on various girls in elementary/middle school and a few girlfriends :dead: :dead: :dead: :dead: :dead: :dead: :dead: :dead: :dead:

but that shit never went far. i knew by late highschool i didnt want no damns COOCH

by college i was doing more than just looking at men lolz  :jetbeauty:
So you liked girls in elementary but when you were older to actually have attraction you went for men. So what if somebody just SLAPPPED a label on you because of what you did before you were actually old enough to realize what you were doing?

Which is what I was saying here but you made it sound nicer I guess.  :letsmessfag:
the thing is

This boy slapped a label on himself

Who knows if he's gay or not

Point no is, it's not a choice

If she's a fag, entrainment isn't going to determine that