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[Lazarus]

Saw a debate on Twitter this week that caught my attention: Madonna or Janet Jackson — who is the real queen of pop?

The conversation was started by Lizzo, who in sharing her list of music royalty gave the coveted title to Jackson, which set off Madonna fans. Billboard magazine, the music industry's longtime chart tracker, gave the title to Madonna some time ago. Jackson is ranked third, behind Mariah Carey.

Before we forget the original, though, let's be clear that in 1976, Billboard had already named Diana Ross the female entertainer of the century. She became the Kareem Abdul-Jabbar of music, too often overlooked whenever people debate the "greatest of all time."

That sort of amnesia is one of the many reasons I dislike debates of this nature to begin with.

But this "Madonna vs. Jackson" conversation drifted toward an interesting topic: crossover appeal.

Janet Jackson's popularity is noteworthy for crossing racial lines, which highlights the fact that Madonna's success did not.

That's not to say Madonna doesn't have Black fans. Of course she does. I'm one of them.

But despite working with iconic R&B producers such as Babyface, Kanye West, Pharrell Williams, Dallas Austin and Timbaland, Madonna has managed just one Top 10 R&B/hip-hop single, "Like a Virgin," which peaked at No. 9 back in 1985. The song's producer, Nile Rodgers, is known for adding some funk to a number of white artists, such as David Bowie ("Let's Dance") and Duran Duran ("Notorious").

Madonna was able to build an iconic career relying heavily on R&B production without the burden of needing to appeal to R&B listeners. She went for as Black a sound as she possibly could without being hindered by the music industry's racism. Ranking on the R&B charts was unnecessary.

That's not unique to Madonna. Bowie brilliantly pointed out the same thing in a 1983 interview on MTV in which he called out the network for its lack of music videos featuring Black artists. The interviewer, Mark Goodman, was so comfortable defending the racist practice that he offered this gem: "We have to try and do what we think not only New York and Los Angeles will appreciate but also Poughkeepsie or ... some town in the Midwest that would be scared to death by Prince, which we're playing, or a string of other Black faces."

That Prince literally was from "some town in the Midwest" was apparently lost on Goodman. What was not lost on anyone in the industry at this time was that white America wanted to hear Black music, without seeing Black faces. That was the lesson of Motown 20 years earlier.

In 1984, Rodgers brought in his R&B band Chic to record "Like a Virgin," and Madonna became a superstar. Perhaps even the queen of pop. Fueled by R&B.

Her 1990 hit "Justify My Love" epitomized this dynamic. "Justify" relies on a beat from a Public Enemy song — which is sampled from a James Brown song. Over that, Madonna does spoken word like a character from "Love Jones." Despite its obvious R&B foundation, the song never cracked the R&B Top 40, even as it hit No. 1 on the Billboard Hot 100.

I love me some Madonna. I've seen her in concert maybe 10 times. I believe she is one of the most important performing artists in history. But I also know she's been able to make a lot of R&B hits without the need to have a lot of R&B listeners, while Black musicians like Jackson have had to "cross over" to be seen as culturally legitimate.

Jackson racked up 10 Hot 100 No. 1 songs, while hitting the top of the R&B list 16 times. Sometimes a song was No. 1 on both charts at the same time.

The "crossover" narrative sickens me because it deems the sensibilities of white America as the sole arbiter of American music, which simultaneously dismissing the sensibilities of the people who have created America's most popular genres of music. From country to rock 'n' roll to R&B, Black artists have had to not only fight the odds just to make a living, but also fight erasure.

The truth is Janet Jackson didn't cross over. White America did. Just as white people had when Diana Ross and the Supremes were battling the Beatles for music supremacy.

How silly if we would celebrate Jackson only because she won acclaim in white America. The distinction of the Billboard Hot 100 vs. the R&B Top 10 is antiquated, an exercise in branding and marketing. Neither list captures overall popularity. But when a Black artist claws her way up the Hot 100, that tells us something. She has overcome an industry machine intended to divide the nation and target certain groups.

I don't care about titles like "queen of pop," but if we're going to have these debates, bear in mind what it took to ascend to the throne.

[The Only BLACK Kalmyks]

a lot of us have yet to realize how much we hold white spaces in high regard

once fas was refused that Album of the Year for the millionth time... i was officially done holding with the Grammys, Oscars and all that bullshit in any regard.

even Adele herself couldn't understand the mess as she stood up there with the award in HER hand.

asking wat the fuck its gonna take for fas to get what she DESERVES.
FUCK their spaces.

but in general...IMO....

a lot of Black people supposedly hate White people but wanna be in their spaces so badly.
they uplift Whiteness, White spaces and White culture. (yes White people have culture).

and look down on spaces built for us - and anything too "ghetto" .

this is why we are excited when we see Black people cross over.
they're now seated at the most COVETED table. they're not over there with JUST the niggers.
their value has increased.

[Barbie Dangerous]

The truth is Janet Jackson didn't cross over. White America did.

!!!

[klappa.]

i think when people say crossong over white america, they basically mean mainstream since white people make up the majority of the population. so if you infiltrate that space, you have a wider audience which means more opportunity.

[Dr Naomi Campbell]

i think when people say crossong over white america, they basically mean mainstream since white people make up the majority of the population. so if you infiltrate that space, you have a wider audience which means more opportunity.

!!!!
This is how I see it
I don't get excited because Becky and Samantha can name 2 of my fav R&B artists songs

[The Only BLACK Kalmyks]

Technically that's what it is

But there's always an underlying (and many times  outright blatant) notion that those spaces are more desirable . Not just because it's a wider audience , but because the nigger circuit ain't where u wanna be stuck at .

Am mean, are we gonna play Disneyland today or have real conversations

[Vonc2002]

i think when people say crossong over white america, they basically mean mainstream since white people make up the majority of the population. so if you infiltrate that space, you have a wider audience which means more opportunity.

!!!!
This is how I see it
I don't get excited because Becky and Samantha can name 2 of my fav R&B artists songs

!!!!!! Its not always so shallow as regarding white spaces more. It's no different than singers in the UK wanting so badly to cross over into the US. Its status,  it reaching a wider audience,  more opportunities,  more MONEY,  etc

[The Only BLACK Kalmyks]

Then why do many black people go out of their way to put down black spaces if it's just about celebrating more money and opportunities

I'm confused.

Is it not possible to celebrate the success and wider appeal without DEMEANING black spaces and proudly labeling them as inferior?

[FRANCE]

I think this crossover mentality in music is applicable to different facets of our regular life too. The house we buy in certain neighbourhoods, the schools / colleges we send our kids to, the way we conduct ourselves at work, etc. It is what it is. Its just reality. White people for centuries and even today do have better things and opportunities than minorities and I dont think its a bad thing to want a piece of the pie.

If we can congratulate someone for "making it out the hood" then having ur song play on Z100 shouldn't be a bad thing either. Cause pop/rock/country songs on Z100 aint being played on Urban / Urban AC stations. If black people can have a multi format hit, good for them.

[Vonc2002]

I think this crossover mentality in music is applicable to different facets of our regular life too. The house we buy in certain neighbourhoods, the schools / colleges we send our kids to, the way we conduct ourselves at work, etc. It is what it is. Its just reality. White people for centuries and even today do have better things and opportunities than minorities and I dont think its bad thing to want a piece of the pie.

If we can congratulate someone for "making it out the hood" then having ur song play on Z100 shouldn't be a bad thing either. Cause songs on Z100 aint being played on Urban / Urban AC stations. If black people can have a multi format hit, good for them.

Yea all this. Its essentially just graduating from one tier to another and not at all a bad thing or simply just about trying to get in and fit in with white people

[Dr Naomi Campbell]

Then why do many black people go out of their way to put down black spaces if it's just about celebrating more money and opportunities

I'm confused.

Is it not possible to celebrate the success and wider appeal without DEMEANING black spaces and proudly labeling them as inferior?

yes and some people do and some people don't

[The Only BLACK Kalmyks]

It's something to think about ...

esepcially before we fix our mouths to drag a black space ... and most especially if the dragging is in favor of or is used to uplift a nonblack space.

there is absolutely nothing wrong with more success and wider appeal. That's a good thing

But we cannot sit here today and try to pretend that black spaces are not  always put down and dragged by black people

That would be unproductive imo

It's always rubbed me the wrong way and I feel a need to speak on it whenever the opportunity presents itself

[L0NZ.]

i think when people say crossong over white america, they basically mean mainstream since white people make up the majority of the population. so if you infiltrate that space, you have a wider audience which means more opportunity.

[The Only BLACK Kalmyks]

but i do agree that it's not ALL about negativity and anti-blackness all the time. some ppl are legit just happy to see their favs finding SUCCESS. and in this country, success does involve climbing up ladders made by white folk. that's just the way it is.

the other stuff is still def worth taking a look at , and thinking about tho.

but i'll step off my soapbox now and get back to my regularly scheduled baking.

the peach cobbler will be done in 20 mins.

[Buy The Stars✨]

i think its an old term.  back then black artists did have to cross for main stream success.